Ep. 69: Turning the Mic Around: Pete Kadushin on Meaning, Mindfulness, and Mental Performance
All the episodes of the Mental Training Lab feel like glorious, geeked-out conversations, and there are certain episodes that feel like opening a doorway. My conversation with Dr. Holly Rogers sits firmly in the latter category. Holly is a psychiatrist, a meditation teacher, and a quiet force in the world of contemplative practice who has spent more than three decades teaching people, from college students to high performers to anyone wrestling with the demands of daily life, how to relate differently to their own minds.
Mindfulness and meditation aren’t new topics by any stretch. But what Holly brings to the table is a combination of scientific insight, lived wisdom, and a profoundly human way of explaining why these practices matter. This episode gave me an opportunity not only to learn from her expertise, but also to reflect on how mindfulness has shaped my own life in ways that go much deeper than just performance optimization.
These practices have changed me. They’ve changed the way I experience pressure, the way I work with athletes, and the way I relate to myself when I stumble, which, like everyone, I do (regularly!). They’ve given me a larger field of consciousness to stand in, a wider emotional range to move within, and, maybe most importantly, the ability to “begin again” with more compassion and curiosity than I ever would have thought possible. This blog is an invitation for you to step into that same field, guided by the insights Holly shared and the stories that emerged along the way.
From Techniques to Something More Human
When I first came into mental performance, I was like a lot of practitioners: hungry for tools, frameworks, and strategies. I wanted to help people perform better under pressure, to manage stress, sharpen focus, and compete when it counted.
And that work matters. It still does.
But somewhere along the way, through grad school, through being in the rooms where it happens, through sitting with athletes and leaders in moments of real vulnerability, something began to shift. I started noticing that the most meaningful moments weren’t about fixing anything. They were about being with someone as they named what they actually wanted… and what was getting in the way.
That’s one critical place where contemplative practice began to blossom for me. Not as a performance hack, but as a way of relating differently to experience itself. I didn’t stick with meditation because it made me calm or allowed me to hover over my meditation cushion each morning. I stuck with it because I was curious, and trusting. And, if I’m honest, because parts of my survival mechanism were exhausted. I had spent a long time believing that if something was meaningful, it had to be hard. That effort and struggle were proof of value.
Meditation didn’t erase that belief overnight. But it started to give me space around it.
Sitting With What Shows Up
One of the things Holly asked me about in this reverse interview was my early experience with meditation… not the polished version, but the real one. And the truth is: my practice has been inconsistent, messy, and deeply human.
I’ve had periods where I sat every day. Periods where I didn’t sit at all. Retreats that cracked me open, and stretches where practice felt dry or mechanical. But slowly, over time, something fundamental changed: my relationship with my own direct experience.
There was a moment on the cushion that stands out, one I shared in the episode. A moment where an old, familiar inner voice showed up. A harsh, demanding, wrestler-flavored voice that had driven me for years. And instead of fighting it, or believing it, or trying to optimize it… I saw it. Not as an enemy. But as something that had worked very, very hard to protect me.
And in that moment, something unexpected happened: compassion. Not intellectual compassion, embodied compassion. The urge to offer that younger version of myself a hug. Tears. A release. A quiet honoring of the fact that my survival strategies had gotten me a long way… and that maybe I didn’t need to cling to them quite so tightly anymore.
That experience didn’t make me softer in a way that undermined performance. It made me freer.
Performance, Presence, and Sacred Work
During the conversation, Holly asked me about my work now, about what it feels like to sit with clients, athletes, and leaders in moments of vulnerability and desire. And the word that kept coming up for me was sacred.
More and more, it’s clear that there is something deeply meaningful about being trusted with another person’s inner world. About holding a container where someone can say, out loud, what they actually want, and what they’re afraid to admit.
Contemplative practice has changed how I show up in those moments. I’m less interested in rushing toward solutions. More willing to sit in uncertainty. More attuned to subtle shifts, tone, posture, energy… all the stuff that doesn’t show up on a checklist. Grounded in the mystery and present to the relationship as it’s unfolding.
I’ve also noticed the same thing mirrored in the way I relate to my own career path!
Looking back, there was no master plan. No five-year roadmap that led me exactly here. There was curiosity. There were conversations. There were moments where something felt alive, and moments where it didn’t. It turns out, all the while, I’ve just been with my experience as it unfolds, and let things move as they do.
Meditation didn’t give me answers. It helped me learn how to listen.
Trusting the Path You’re Already On
One of the themes that emerged organically in this episode was trust, not blind optimism, but a willingness to stay present with what’s arising rather than forcing outcomes.
Like most humans, that’s been a hard lesson that I’ve needed to relearn REPEATEDLY!
My survival mechanism loves effort. Loves control. Loves the idea that if I just push harder, clarity will arrive. Contemplative practice hasn’t removed that impulse, but it’s given me a relationship with it.
I’m more aware now of when I’m operating from contraction versus curiosity. More able to notice when I’m chasing certainty instead of listening for what’s actually being asked of me.
And paradoxically, that has made my work more effective.
Clients feel it. Conversations deepen. The work lights me up in a way that feels sustainable, not draining. When I talk about this work now, people don’t roll their eyes or check out. They lean in. Not because I’m trying to convince them, but because something genuine is present.
Why This Episode Matters (and Why It’s Different)
This episode is different from most Mental Training Lab conversations, and that’s intentional.
It’s not a masterclass. It’s not a toolkit. It’s a lived reflection on what happens when contemplative practices move from being something you do… to something that lives within you.
If you listened to my first episode with Holly, this conversation is a natural continuation, the other side of the same inquiry. That earlier episode explored the science and structure of mindfulness. This one explores the personal cost, the humility, and the quiet transformation that happens when you actually practice.
And if you’re someone who coaches, leads, teaches, or supports others, especially in high-performance environments, you might hear something here that calls to you.
Because people don’t just feel our competence. They feel our presence.
Three Grounded Takeaways You Can Work With
Rather than a long checklist, I want to leave you with three invitations, practices you can return to over time.
1. Create Space Before You Optimize
Before you ask, “How do I fix this?” try asking, “Can I stay with this for a moment?” Whether it’s stress, self-criticism, or uncertainty, performance improves not when we eliminate experience, but when we stop being hijacked by it. Even a few minutes of quiet awareness can change the quality of your response.
2. Notice What Lights You Up, and What Drains You
Pay attention to where your energy expands versus contracts. When you talk about your work, your goals, or your relationships, do you feel alive or armored? Contemplative practice sharpens this sensitivity, and those signals are often more honest than logic alone.
3. Let the Practice Be Human
There is no “right” way to meditate. No perfect streak. No finish line. What matters is the relationship you begin to cultivate with yourself, showing up with curiosity, kindness, and patience. If you wait until you’re calm or disciplined to begin, you’ll wait forever. Begin where you are.
Bringing It Home
Being interviewed by Holly was a reminder of something I still forget when I’m tangled up in fear and trying to optimize my way out of it: that this work is alive. That it continues to unfold. That growth doesn’t always look like progress, sometimes it looks like slowing down enough to notice what’s already here.
I’m grateful for the chance to balance the scales. To be asked instead of asking. And to share not just what I know, but what I’m still learning.
If this conversation resonated, I encourage you to listen to both episodes, the original conversation with Holly, and this reverse interview. Together, they tell a fuller story about mindfulness, performance, and what it means to live this work from the inside out.
Thanks for being here. And thanks for heading into the lab with me, especially when the questions get a little more personal.
Recent Episodes
